Registered Member #633
Joined: 3:59:33 pm GMT 10/24/05
Posts: 1173
Recently, there has been a bit of interest in the Harpers of Thain, who have lain moribund for quite some time now. A new- and hopefully-rejuvenated Harpers of Thain will now arise from the ashes to take it's place.
For Older, Ex-Harper players/Characters: If you have once played a Harper character, and would like to rejoin the fold, then drop me a PM (also, let know if you still have your Harper pin). If you don't want to rejoin, and still have a Harper pin, please dispose of it Find a trash barrel or find Tanna IG and let her have it so it can be given to someone else, please. We'd prefer that only active Harpers have Harper pins.
For others who think they might like to join, you can send me a PM, too. It would help a great deal if those who are not familiar with the Harpers, their aims and history, did a little research beforehand. You can find a lot of decent information about the Harpers of the Forgotten Realms on the Forgotten Realms Wiki. There is also some player-generated content, which we'll be happy to share with you.
Please be advised, if you're the type that likes to play the CE dwarven necromancer/rogue/palemaster, or super-LG-but-ethically-challenged half-orc paladin/rogue/COT, this might not be the guild for you. Power-gamers need not apply, either. Also, it is NOT necessary for you to take the Harper Scout prestige class in order to become a Harper.
Always Preceding Miggen Registered Member #136
Joined: 4:31:27 am GMT 06/13/04
Posts: 16130
AA wrote ... If you don't want to rejoin, and still have a Harper pin, please dispose of it. Find a trash barrel or find Tanna IG and let her have it so it can be given to someone else, please. We'd prefer that only active Harpers have Harper pins.
Just a note that there are potentially three independent Harper groups acting on Thain from what I've seen. Nobody who has a Harper pin is required to turn them in due to AA's OOC post above... if your character would decide to turn in a pin, that's up to them (and you as their Player) as to how they dispose of said pin. There may be inter-guild rivalries where Harper group A tries to take pins from members of other Harper groups by force, but that should all be done cooperatively/respectfully (these are not relics that drop on death so mutual consent is required to take one by force) and handled mostly IC, although a little OOC coordination goes a long ways toward helping prevent sore feelings.
Registered Member #633
Joined: 3:59:33 pm GMT 10/24/05
Posts: 1173
@Bonesly:
There aren't three Harper guilds. The 'official' Harpers of Thain are inactive. While individual players may still play as if there was a guild, there is none. It has not met in ages, and the Bioware forum, I think, is dead.
The second incarnation of Harpers (remember: the splinter group I started in response to the internecine strife between Harpers, and got threatened with a ban for?) never got off the ground.
This batch is being formed in response to inquiries by a couple of players. Renegade dumped half-a-dozen Harper pins on me this past weekend, so I think it is safe to say this is the "Official" Harpers, reformed, unless there is a specific reason not to?
On the matter of pins: I find it rather odd that players should continue to possess items that belong to a guild to which they are no longer a member. One exception has already been made because the pin itself holds sentimental value to a particular character, but that was an RP exception. Does this mean players can now join every guild they can in an effort to get goodies, and then quit once they have them? Since it's going to be left up to them to decide whether or not to give the goodies back...
@Lightfoot:
The pin was intended to be given to full Harpers -- i.e. people who were invited to join the guild (they don't take volunteers!)and had successfully passed through a period of apprenticeship and mentorship. I forget the ranking system we used, but you had to go through a 'pledge' phase before you received your pin.
If you have a character who you believe personifies the qualities of a Harper, then drop me a mail. We'll RP your evaluation process, and drop a pin on you. If you're referring to the character I think you're referring to, I'm not certain that character's affiliation with the Harpers wasn't originally inteded to be part of some alliance formed for a specific purpose, so you may have been a Harper ally, but not a Harper, per se (otherwise, I think you would have gotten a pin).
Registered Member #34
Joined: 11:01:04 am GMT 02/26/04
Posts: 2778
AtanatarAlcarin wrote ... There aren't three Harper guilds. The 'official' Harpers of Thain are inactive. While individual players may still play as if there was a guild, there is none. It has not met in ages, and the Bioware forum, I think, is dead.
The second incarnation of Harpers (remember: the splinter group I started in response to the internecine strife between Harpers, and got threatened with a ban for?) never got off the ground.
This batch is being formed in response to inquiries by a couple of players. Renegade dumped half-a-dozen Harper pins on me this past weekend, so I think it is safe to say this is the "Official" Harpers, reformed, unless there is a specific reason not to?
What you're saying is that you don't know if there's currently a Harper guild, but if there is, it's now dissolved, as it's "unofficial"... by your decree.
And now that you're in charge of the new "Official", reformed Harpers guild, everybody needs to step in line... and that means handing over those pins, because nobody is allowed to have one without your approval.
If you're sensing that something is wrong, but can't quite put your thumb on it just yet, let me describe the scene from the outside looking in.
First, yours is a new guild. Just because there used to be a Harper guild doesn't change that, even if you were part of said guild. And, in fact, you acknowledged that yourself in your post. Your new guild should be treated like every other new guild, and part of that should include no DM support until it has been "earned". I'll not try to define that, but the fact that yours is a new guild would seem to indicate that the definition doesn't apply yet.
Next, guilds are run by players. If there are some other PCs currently involved in a Harper guild, you're totally out of line trying to tell them that they can't have their guild... doubly so for making the insinuation that Renegade endorsed your guild and that you therefore speak with the authority of the staff. The staff has had a long-running practice of letting guilds be run by players, with little or no staff interjection. So any other Harper guilds are equally valid... and more so IMO, as they've obviously been around longer than your guild. You'll either have to come to terms with them about some sort of union, possibly giving up leadership in the process, or there could be multiple Harper guilds.
Lastly, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that quite a few other players are reading all this and wondering why your new guild is getting DM support from its inception.
And FYI, not all guilds have some unique guild item. And if some character decides to leave a guild, it's up to that character as to if he's going to give the item back, and there's pretty much nothing you can do if the player wants to keep the item. In all likelihood, the staff is going to let the character keep the item. You might be surprised to learn how many guildhouse keys are in the "wrong hands", and how many guild trinkets are held by non-guildmembers.
Registered Member #157
Joined: 5:18:57 pm GMT 06/25/04
Posts: 15510
The reason I asked what I did was not because I was considering as a player making a new character (or for Willow since you decided to stop that route of RP a while back), but to openly bring about a way to have the decision made about this topic so players would know
The staff are discussing this issue, so it doesn't likely need any discussion more than what Bonesly said above and whatever else someone might post as staff opinion later on Basically stay tuned and one of us will post an answer to this
Niv wrote ... And if some character decides to leave a guild, it's up to that character as to if he's going to give the item back, and there's pretty much nothing you can do if the player wants to keep the item.
Personal Opinion
Should the guild leader ask then why wouldn't the player return the item on leaving the guild?
Why would they not do so, they left the guild so give up the item It's even easier to just drop such items into the bins if you leave a guild rather than keep a perk that is not yours to have If it's IC keeping of the item then the guild can IC get it back likely .. I can't see as it is a done deal that people can just keep guild items when they leave (every guild I left I made sure I returned the items as OOC courtesy).
Niv wrote ... In all likelihood, the staff is going to let the character keep the item.
Many people seem to have hold of them from certain guilds though but that seems more from a lack of admin by the guild leaders Which occurs most if guild leaders stop playing and that is the reason for the guilds demise or they lose interest and drop things for others to pick up The staff have better things to do with their time than root out all the items that guild leaders have given out and then forget to ask back for as you said Niv it's up to the players in the guilds to sort that sort of thing out.
If they were asked for but not returned and no RP way found to possibly gain that item back (some keys and items have been stolen or could be now placed in a loose satchel to drop on death now in part of a plot) then I suppose guild leaders could ask staff .. but I don't think I remember that happening .. most commonly with a certain guild they tried an RP of changing the locks so the old keys were useless (changed key tag in the mod) but it's up to them to get back other items in that case .. did they bother? I think not considering the amount of items of a certain sort I still see about
Registered Member #34
Joined: 11:01:04 am GMT 02/26/04
Posts: 2778
@LF: You guys make up the rules, so it's a discussion for staff to make, but if you want my opinion, a good-aligned PC should probably give the item back, either without prompting or upon being asked. An evil PC might hold on to the item, but I agree that the player should allow for its eventual recovery. But, strictly from a player's view, the item has been earned through RP, and is seen as a reward for that RP, and not just membership in a guild. And I believe there is a precedence for that, as players aren't made to relinquish items associated with old or defunct guilds (like the old Celestial guild, for example).
Also, given Thain's tolerance of play styles, the player should likewise be allowed to keep it. It's not like I have any expectation that PCs/players would give up Poisonwood gear if the Poisonguard decided it wanted to make some recoveries. Quite the contrary, I'd expect to get smacked down pretty hard if I, for example, insisted that other players hand over gear or else submit to PvP.
Registered Member #157
Joined: 5:18:57 pm GMT 06/25/04
Posts: 15510
The old celestial guild folk were not a PC guild and in that respect never had a guild item at all (well they did have a seal that cast light that was the key to the temple but that was given by an NPC and /would/ have been removed should they left but the items perhaps remain because the gate that it opened was gone).
Also why would the Poisonguard have any influence over people holding Poisonwood loot? They would have influence over who held one of their keys as that is the guild item.
Pretty much if the items gets retrieved or not would be up to the leader of the guild
Registered Member #34
Joined: 11:01:04 am GMT 02/26/04
Posts: 2778
Lightfoot wrote ... Also why would the Poisonguard have any influence over people holding Poisonwood loot? They would have influence over who held one of their keys as that is the guild item.
I'm just trying to offer a comparison there, but I agree that it's not apples and apples. Still, if the only consideration is what is IC, then why wouldn't the Poisonguard have influence over people holding Poisonwood loot?
Keys aren't really an apples to apples comparison either, though, as the point there is that they allow you access into an area that supposedly reserved for the guild. That's why nobody cares if you keep a key that no longer works.
In the case of the Harper pins, if I understand correctly, they were given to characters who had earned the right to call themselves Harpers. But that right extends beyond Thain. It's much like a fraternity in that respect... once a member, always a member. You're supposed to be able to show your pin to any other member and be welcomed.
If the item serves some purpose in addition to being a simple reward (and none of the items that I've seen are all that extraordinary, except perhaps for the Keeper Robes), like to identify members of a secret group, then item should probably be changed if it becomes an issue. For that matter, with the current crafting system in place, I believe guilds could craft their own items, complete with names and descriptions. (Maybe I'm wrong about that, or perhaps it's limited to a very few categories of items.)
But, Pravus has a guild-related item that I personally feel I earned through my RP. It's not like those things were handed out left and right. So I feel it's right that I be allowed to determine its fate. Even if I want to keep it just as a reminder of my character's history, I feel that's appropriate. (That's not my position, but an example.)
Still, you guys make the rules, and you have access to my inventory, so you'll have to decide.
Registered Member #1400
Joined: 5:42:30 pm GMT 02/15/09
Posts: 104
if you want to keep it, in my opinion, go ahead. however, then, you would be considered a harper by other characters. If you want to be considered a harper, then that's fine, but if you don't, why keep the pin?
[ The Island of Thain ]
Of Harpers, Old and New
It's even easier to just drop such items into the bins if you leave a guild rather than keep a perk that is not yours to have 
